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May 12, 2009


Sleeping Beastly

Great post. Much appreciated. Your thoughts on torture vs. discipline in particular are especially relevant to me right now.

Baron Korf

Thank you Tim. That is probably one of the best distinctions on the matter that I have come across.

Eventually it becomes a matter of "what is a just punishment for being uncooperative designed to persuade them to talk" vs. "the premeditated infliction of suffering on an individual, with the intention of breaking the will". That ends up being terribly subjective in a way, almost case by case.

I think it falls somewhere along the lines of the allowed application of the death penalty and just war theory. Every time I think of any of these things, it reminds me of the words of our Savior 'Moses allowed it because of the hardness of your hearts'.


In other words, it basically boils down to this:

Support the terrorist's right not to surrender details of an impending terrorist attack because, gosh darn it, we would more gladly sacrifice the lives of even our own families than have a terrorist surrender such life-saving information due to "enhanced interrogation" measures that would only require that!

I've never seen something so incredible as sweet apologia for the terrorists!

Might as well obliterate the Doctrine of Just War or even the notion of "self-defense" since, gosh darn it, what kind of Christians are we if we ultimately resort to killing our enemies?

We should love them, hold them, cherish them more than our very families!

Adam D

e. you keep inverting the point of emphasis. What needs to be emphasized is loving our own immortal souls more than the mortal lives of our family members. Yes, terrorists need to be treated in a manner respecting their inherent dignity. We needn't try to love terrorists more than we love our family or country, but we do need to abide by God's will and do what's right and holy, or else risk our very souls. What good is it if I save even the entire United States if I lose my soul to damnation?

"I've never seen something so incredible as sweet apologia for the terrorists!" Such a frustrating inversion of the real point being expressed! Come on, you're not dumb! The apologia is not for terrorists, it is an apologia for the behavior of military interrogators to conduct their job morally, to save their souls and the soul of our nation.

Sleeping Beastly

Sarcasm and derision are poor ways of making your point. I suspect you have a point worth making, and that you're doing yourself and the rest of us a disservice by the way in which you present it. If you'd care to restate your point, the rest of us might actually be edified by it.


Adam D.:

As I said, if we are to be so benevolent as Christians, what is the point "Just War" or even self-defense for that matter?

Rather that we simply allow our enemies to feast on innocent lives and even the lives of our own families as opposed to our killing enemy combatants in time of war or in defense of innocent life such as in an attack by an assailant!

Are we not Christians?

Shouldn't we allow our loved ones fall prey to any such murdering feign that prowl about at night, seeking to attack and rape our daughters in the streets?

Or even in jus ad bellum, we should simply allow our country ravaged by even our most hostile enemies than kill any one of their men, since they too are Sons of God, no???

If you are to rely on such florid rhetoric concerning lofty Christian Ideals, then we might as well embraced them to their fullest since to do otherwise would mean, by such logic, the very lost of our own soul!

As for me, the atrocities suffered at 9/11 is enough to warrant such "self-defense" & "right action", such that entire innocent American populations deserve the God-given right to be protected from these, amongst whom certain families have already endured enough of that tragedy that was the very result of that horrible event that continues to haunt their memories nightly as it is daily!

I wonder if you and the rest would respond likewise had your child, who would've been easily an adult right about now, but isn't because, instead, you have a grave containing fragments of what once was his human body!


Adam D, Tim J, Sleeping Beastly:

Just want to say that I do apologize for the tone of my comments; however, I hope you can, at least, understand the frustrations of those where 9/11 isn't actually just a passing headline but an immediate and even constant reality.

Adam D

e. I'm so sorry for your loss. Perhaps we shouldn't press the issue at present, specially not in the rather impersonal and abstracted format of a blog comments thread. This is a subject, when so close to one's heart (and especially if it is a source of rancor) to be taken up in a good conversation with a spiritual adviser, not with a testy and insensitive Adam D (mea culpa).

You'll be in my prayers, e.


Adam D.,

I appreciate it; although, instead of keeping me in your prayers, pray for the daughter of a beloved that was an unfortunate victim of that atrocity.

That kind of tragedy is one I hope nobody else suffers.

Tim J.

"That kind of tragedy is one I hope nobody else suffers."

That we can all agree on.

I, too, am sorry for any loss you have suffered, e.

I share, as much as possible, the deep sorrow of those who have lost loved ones in our present conflict, but I don't see how that could change anything I've written.

e., I don't think you could possibly mean a great deal of what you actually wrote, and so I won't respond as if you did. You know, I'm sure, that there is no logical connection between recognizing torture as evil and simply giving up any right to defend ourselves.

"Not torturing" has nothing to do with a pacifism, either as a philosophy or just a political fad.

We ought to go after those working to harm us using every MORAL means at our disposal. Those with moral principles and codes of honor have ALWAYS had to be more clever than their enemies, because their refusal to act immorally has, at times, put them at a tactical disadvantage.

Again, we ought to go after those working to harm us using every MORAL means at our disposal... and no immoral ones.

Sleeping Beastly

No need to apologize. I wasn't offended, just disappointed that I was missing out on the point you were trying to make. I get upset myself sometimes, but if you remember that I'm your brother in Christ (who may need your rebukes and correction) and not your enemy, your arguments might wind up being easier to grasp and more persuasive.

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